A distinguished Ghanaian Industrialist, firm, proactive and resourceful leader, who sees risks and challenges as opportunities for growth and development, Mrs. Kate Quartey–Papafio (Dr.) has truly proven gender cannot be an excuse for non-performance. She founded the Ghanaian cable manufacturing giant Reroy Cables Ltd in 1992 to distribute high quality electrical cables and as at today, Reroy Cables represents the repositioning of one of the iconic brand names in Ghana’s cable manufacturing and Aluminium application industry which goes beyond its basic power cables business to deliver complete power solution.
As a major player in the production and distribution of power cables, conductors, provision of electrical power distribution system and strategic contract services to the electricity sector, its business is also linked to the electricity distribution and transmission.
Reroy has expanded its manufacturing capabilities in Ghana to optimize its global business portfolio, and exploring further other geographic deployments and business ventures across Sub region. Over the last two decades, Mrs. Kate Quartey–Papafio (Dr.) has led Reroy to build a brand, which has now become synonymous with her core values of excellence, integrity and continuous improvement.
In view of the increasing complexity and dynamic nature of current challenges facing many of the world's economies, she has led Reroy to focus part of its investments on the development of specialized human resource and technological base.
Today, Reroy can confidently boast of a client focused approach underpinned by responsiveness and keen attention to detail as the hallmark of its service delivery. Mrs. Kate Quartey–Papafio (Dr.) has received many national and international recognitions which includes: Chartered Institute of Marketing Ghana (CIMG) Marketing woman of the year 2013; also adjudged winner in the Entrepreneurship category at the maiden edition of the Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah African Genius Award; her company Reroy cables limited was adjudged the Manufacturing Company of the year 2014 at the latest National Marketing awards organized by the Chartered Institute of Marketing Ghana.
Other achievements include Winner of 2013 Ernst & Young West Africa Entrepreneur of the Year Award; Africa’s most influential Women in business & government Awards 2013, CEO Communications Limited; South Africa; Silver Award, 3rd Ghana-Africa Business Awards 2008. She was also a panel member at the 2015 Global African Investment Summit, UK and in 2018 represented Ghana at the Lionesses of Africa platform in South Africa. The European Business Assembly in Germany recently adjudged her the Best Manager.
At the same ceremony her company Reroy Cables Ltd. was named the Best Enterprise. She was in December 2016 Honored at the Ghana Property Awards. Then she was again honored as the ‘Business Woman of the Year’ by the Ghana Economic Forum at the Excellence Awards 2016. She was recently decorated with a Doctorate Degree for her unique contributions to national and international topical issues spanning over a period of 20 years and was also acknowledged by Market Place Africa on the CNN network as ‘The Queen of Cables in Ghana’. The World Diplomatic Federation early on in the year 2021 inducted her as the Women and Children Affairs Commissioner.
TVM: You are reckoned as one of the heavy weights in the manufacturing industry in the country. How would you describe the current performance of the sector?
KQP: I humbly welcome these kind commendations and will keep up the hard work that has won me this enviable recognition. Per my view, the sector’s performance is not at its usual best as we all know and this is attributable to the outbreak of Covid-19 that has frustrated every economic activity in the entire world. And also, due to the surge in cases in some parts of the world, it is still making the sector face some challenges as manufacturers are unable to travel to some parts of the world to source for the purest of raw materials for their production processes.
TVM: How has these impacted the sectors performance in general?
Supposing I started buying stolen goods, I wouldn’t have birthed this dream we see today
KQP: I do not have the data currently. However, from consultation with companies from my sector, the growth rate has seen a decline as a result of the pandemic.
TVM: You are one of the four producers of cables in the country which is in the electrical and electronics subsector of the energy sector. How will you describe your subsector?
KQP: Our sector is a very key sector to the growth of the country’s economy. This statement is true because the high-quality cables and conductors we produce are used by the utility providers to transmit power to all key areas that need power to help improve efficiency and ensure they deliver maximum output to support the economic growth by ensuring there are sustainable jobs to give decent livelihoods to improve the well-being of all.
Due to this contribution to the energy sector, it has lent credence to the fact that we are known to be the indigenous cable giant in the whole country.
TVM: The government of Ghana has established a ten-point agenda to transform the country’s industrialization vision. What is your assessment so far on its performance?
KQP: I believe significant progress has been made so far. And more could be done to consolidate the gains made. I would respectfully urge decision makers to fully incorporate the expert views and opinions expressed by some notable captains of industries in the implementation of this program to ensure the country gets the full benefits it desires of this landmark project.
TVM: One of the key points of the agenda is the One District One factory. There’s been various schools of thought about its implementation. As an industrialist, what is your take on this?
KQP: This is a slippery area and I would respond to it differently from how you have posited it. I would rather suggest to government to create more industrial parks with an alternative source of electricity that is very affordable for industries.
And as a result, local companies will be able to produce more to compete in competitive markets like the leverage AfCFTA seeks to create for countries within the African region.
Real money is not money you have stolen. You don’t have it because you can’t look after it.
TVM: Given the opportunity, how different would you have implemented?
KQP: I would have first engaged with all the sector heads of the various trade organizations we have in the country and provided stimulus packages for members who desire to expand their operations but are unable to do so due to their inability to secure financing.
I will adopt this approach because when you want to set up a new factory the regulatory authorities alone cause undue delays and will hinder the progress of such vision.
TVM: As an industrialist, has an enabling environment been created by government to support the growth of the industrial sector?
KQP: To be very candid in my opinion, I would say more has been done in the past few years and it is very appreciable. But, I believe much more could be done to improve on what has already been done by putting in place the required enablers to help achieve the vision of industrializing the economy
TVM: Reroy Cables Ltd., is noted to be one of the top four cable manufacturing firms in the country. How has your journey in the cable industry been?
KQP: We are not only recognised as one of the best, we are known to be a cable manufacturing giant in Africa. This success is attributable to hard work, attention to details and focus on every piece of information through what we do as a company.
Additionally, we invest in ultramodern machines coupled with training of our human capital with the best of training from local and international partners that ensure that we get the highest efficiency rate through our production, marketing and distribution process.
TVM: Considering the call for climate change and the move to renewable energy, how is Reroy Group also aligning its operations to remain relevant in the coming ‘age’ of business?
KQP: Very good question! Reroy has incorporated a company that is solely responsible for producing renewable energy to help reduce the reliance on our known power source. It is interesting to note that Reroy is the Private Sector Representative on the SDG Advisory Board that is working closely with government and selected state agencies to ensure we achieve the SDG goal 7.
We are fully committed to directives from the Paris Agreement and we will fully corporate to ensure Ghana achieves its target per the timelines given. Since we are a dynamic business entity, we are putting in place all necessary measures to make our operations remain relevant and be able to function properly with any new innovation.
TVM: Reroy Cables currently exports to five African countries and Europe. What is next for the company?
KQP: We are currently working on all regulatory requirements to enable us export to every part of the world. And we can confidently say that we are going to position the country strategically in the world. Our markets are growing, especially Ghana. Africa too is growing as well. What we need is the support to expand our industry.
We are also looking for partners– international partners, to partner us in technology-wise and for training to become a global brand. I don’t mind where they come from, either America, China, South Korea, Israel or Norway because some of them are good with some types of cables and that’ll position us as a global competitor.
TVM: Reroy Cables has gradually morphed into Reroy Group operating from cables into the supply chain. How would you describe the operations of the group?
KQP: Through the collaborations of our subsidiaries, Reroy is well placed to provide targeted solutions to a broad range of power needs, while ensuring exceptional value to our clients. With strong commitment to the growth and sustainability of Africa’s power infrastructure, Reroy Group seeks to leverage its vast experience and technical expertise to introduce innovative solutions to current and future challenges facing the Power Sector across the continent.
TVM: You come across as a wonder to many because of your perseverance in a male dominated industry. As such people want to know who Mrs. Kate Quartey-Papafio (Dr) is?
KQP: Mrs. Kate Quartey-Papafio (Dr) is an entrepreneur, born and bred as an entrepreneur, not taking things lightly and seeing opportunities all around us, hops on them. And wherever there’s negative, there is always positive and I always thrive on the positive. Because, whatever you want to do, the negative will come but please just look at the positive side and be focused. I don’t give up easily.
So, Mrs. Kate Quartey-Papafio (Dr), I am who I am because of my perseverance, because of my attention to details, because I take the bold step to enter into the areas where people think that there’s no way. However, that’s where God makes a way.
TVM: Looking at your background as being born and bred an entrepreneur, did you study engineering and what inspired you to venture into the electrical and electronics subsector of the energy sector?
KQP: Well, I didn’t study engineering but basically, I’m a fellow of the Institute of Engineers. So, the thing is, you don’t necessarily have to be an engineer before you can attain what you desire to be. You are who you are because you have the gift and the spirit of perseverance and that takes you a long way.
Moreover, I was inspired by an opportunity that availed itself years ago and I capitalized on it. From there, it’s been from one level to another. Challenges came along the line but you simply can’t give up easily just because one way or the other you are finding it very difficult in certain areas. You can excel in the area that you haven’t even thought of but you have to set your mind to it that this is what I want to do and be focused and you need to be attentive to details.
You also need to make sure that with everything that you want to do, you have timelines. You can only achieve it by going according to the plan that you have. And when the time comes for needed support, you get the right support because you’ve focused your mind on it.
TVM: What has kept you through it all?
KQP: The grace of God. Of course, first of all the support will come from God first because He’s wired you to be who He wants you to be. So, that alone is something that you should look out for yourself, that this is the place you want to get to.
And until you’ve gotten there, you don’t have to look back to become ‘Lot’, the pillar of salt. There’s a saying that when you are going forward, don’t look back. So, you have to forget about all the past things. It’s good for you to just think about the future. At times when you make a mistake, it’s okay to say, oh well, I think I made a mistake here, but this time I don’t want to repeat such a mistake.
I want to move on to achieve the right goals. So, it’s best not to repeat your mistakes and at the same time you should be focused.
TVM: Was there a need for you to do some courses in engineering when you found yourself in that environment?
KQP: Oh yes. I think it’s basically important one should always, wherever you find yourself, you should be learning all the time. You simply cannot give up. Reading, learning; you have to learn every minute and read a little bit more. Get yourself in the habit of reading to expand your scope of knowledge to know about new things that are happening in other parts of the world and even to educate yourself. So, one must always be acquiring knowledge.
I mean, you cannot finish educating yourself. If you say that you’ve done engineering, so you’ll stop at it, no! Even if you’ve done engineering, new technology is coming up. How are you going to fit in? So, we are always learning and we are still learning. And we can’t stop learning until our last days. Even at that also, we learn. So, we always learn. We should look at the way forward and how we can acquaint ourselves with the new and modern age of doing things and how we can improve.
TVM: You have been referred to several names including ‘lioness of Africa’ and ‘Iron Lady’- very strong lady. How does this make you feel when you hear?
KQP: That is very interesting. It’s because I have a winning mentality and that makes me very daring. So, it is not out of place to be called a strong lady. I get encouraged and motivated by such accolades and it spurs me on to work much harder to achieve and accomplish more in life.
TVM: What is your fondest childhood memory?
KQP: I used to play football a lot with the guys in my childhood days. It was called ‘gutter to gutter soccer’.
TVM: Can you walk us through your academic path that formed you to be the Kate you are today?
KQP: The Kate I am today started from nowhere. Apparently, everybody has his or her gift. People are very lucky to be taken to universities and all that. For me, I didn’t get anybody to take me to the university.
Even some of the schools I attended, are no more. So, some people are lucky to have scholarships and all that. As for some of us, we are hustlers. However, I have done a lot of short courses. I don’t want to use education as the only yardstick for success in order not to discourage people who have passion to venture into other disciplines including male dominated areas as a result of not having any formal education.
Formal education is a very important catalyst but without that, people have achieved higher accomplishments in life. Let’s change the narrative about education in our country to mean something else than just acquiring big titles without breaking barriers to make any fundamental discoveries.
TVM: If you had another opportunity to start your profession all over again, which possible area would you have considered?
KQP:Well, if today I’m to start afresh, believe me, the first thing I will be looking at is what we have as a country. Because, in Ghana, we are blessed with so many things. If I’m to start from ground zero, first and foremost, I will be thinking very deep about what we have now. What is it that we have, what minerals do we have; what is it that we have that people don’t have? That’s the first thing. Because as I always say, that right from the beginning GOD said ‘let there be light and there was light’. But well, light and darkness cannot be together, that is why we have power (energy).
So, it comes to say that the sun is blazing down. So, if we are to look at it now and ask where do I want to go, I think I will be looking more into the Green Energy field. Seriously, Green Energy, is what I really want to get into, because it’s like this is what we need. We have a sun blazing down; what are we doing with it? We have things that people do not have and we think that well we don’t have enough.
But, we have more than enough but what are we doing with what we have? That’s the question we should ask ourselves. What are we doing with it? How can we add value to what we have; the blessing that we have? We have the bauxite, we have the gold, we have the diamond; everything. What we need is discipline. That is what we need. If we discipline ourselves, I think that we will be able to do something.
TVM: About two years ago, there was a hint that you have been conferred with an Honorary Doctorate Degree and as such you are now Dr Kate Quatey-Papafio. Can you throw more light on that honorary award?
KQP: I can confirm this to be true. My hard work and effort over the years earned me this recognition from a top Ukrainian State University. The nomination was subjected to a lot of rigorous processes but after it all, I came out successful with the conferment of the Honorary Doctorate in Leadership and Management.
TVM: Different tales have been narrated about what led you to ‘striking the gold you mine’ today which is Reroy Cables. Can you brief us how it all began?
KQP: What got me into the cable business was when my cables were stolen. So, my husband and I went to the market to purchase some cables and we realized that we weren’t having the whole complete set of cables that will actually give us what we were looking for. So, we decided to import the cables ourselves. We imported more and sold some after using some.
So, that’s how so we started importing. Eventually, we decided to add value because people were looking for different types of cables. So, that actually also triggered us to conclude that, well, if people are asking for different types of cables why don’t we add value by bringing in semi-finished products. So, that is where we started with machineries by bringing in the semi-finished products to add value and to research about how we can expand the scope of cables in the industry.
TVM: Why the name Reroy?
KQP: Reroy are the names of my two most genius, precious sons: Reginald and Roy. They are a blessing that have come my way. After all the six long miscarriages, they chose to come and they came out as twins. Because of that, I don’t like single things.
TVM: Before ‘striking that gold’ which birthed the Reroy Cables Ltd., what was Mrs. Kate Quartey-Papafio (Dr) involved in?
KQP: I was into varieties of entrepreneurial ventures dealing in hardware and other accessories at a shop I owned at Kaneshi some decades ago.
TVM: : You are seen as a courageous Ghanaian Industrialist. How would you describe your leadership style?
KQP: I am a very dynamic, responsive and assertive leader. This makes me adjust to changing trends that affect my company positively. I do not just sit and get result, I get involved and also challenge the structures I have put in place to deliver results. I learn from others to improve on my wealth of experience gathered over the decades.
TVM: You were reckoned as ‘The Queen of Cables in Ghana’ by CNN in 2017. However, from research, we realised you are the leading female cable entrepreneur on the continent. How does this recognition come across to you?
KQP: I now feel someone has been watching with an eagle’s eye. Market Place Africa on CNN is a big platform that very known entrepreneurs from other parts of the world would like to appear. So, for my documentary to be captioned ‘The Queen of Cables in Ghana’ speaks volumes of the work I have done, I am doing and I will do in the future.
The truth is, the industry I operate is a male-dominated one and for me, a female, to be rubbing shoulders with men in that industry speaks volumes. Our hard work through the years has resulted in the company now being active in four sectors. Over the years, Reroy Cable has grown from cables into the supply chain where we have the Reroy power- that looks after the accessories of the cables and then also we have Reroy Metal and Reroy Energy.
We are looking at the energy in terms of renewables. We are looking at metals where you can get your copper and aluminium. We are also looking at the power where you can get the accessories in terms of transformers and the accessory to give you the power. The turning point for Reroy is when we started exporting to Europe. I will say that the fact that our products is being accepted in Europe and in the sub-region has really leveraged and added value to Reroy.
We believe in quality. Our workers, our engineers, our quality control, they are all high standard engineers and high standard employees that we have. We also believe absolutely in innovations. As a result of our innovation, we believe there’s always more room for expansion and we know that comes at a cost. Currently, we actually export 70% of our products outside. Also, in terms of employee size, we have a very appreciable number.
Moreover, we are looking forward to be part of the growth of the economy and the continent of Africa. In terms of growth, we haven’t caught up at all; there’s still room for expansion. So, let’s look at how best we can improve our industries; how we can leverage on the raw materials that we have to expand the scope of job creation and sustain it, especially in our regions.
So, considering all these narrations, it doesn’t come as a surprise to me to be recognized as the ‘leading female cable entrepreneur on the continent’. I just strongly believe it’s a wake-up call to all women to believe in themselves and boldly step into any sector they desire even if it’s seen as male dominated.
TVM: So, would we it be wrong to call you ‘The Queen of Cables in Africa’?
KQP: Hahahahaha! It will be a great honour to be regarded as such. But, humbly speaking, hard-work, dedication, diligent, determination, and above all, the fear of God can make anyone rise to the top in any endeavour or choice.
TVM: To you, on several platforms, you have indicated that gender cannot be an excuse for non-performance. Why this strong philosophy?
KQP: In life you identify your God given gift and pursue it to the fullest. Mine is to light Africa and irrespective of whatever it took I was going to work harder to make it a reality. That is why I have said gender cannot be an excuse for non-performance.
TVM: Engineering is one of the professions that has less women involvement across the globe. Currently less than 8% of the sector are made of women in Ghana. This is as a result of the foundational courses required to arrive at such professions, for example Mathematics. And research has shown that majority of young girls dislike the course. As such, are you also considering to empower young girls to whip up their interest in the subject?
KQP: Reroy Eve Engineering & Technology Institute is a company incorporated under the laws of Ghana to help make that a reality. We are working hard and we urge you all to support us.
TVM: : You were charged in the collapse of the Capital Bank. However, you were recently acquitted and discharged of all offences. How does this make you feel considering the dent it had on your personality?
KQP: The verdict of the competent court of jurisdiction settled this case and would not like to speak any further on it. I give glory and thanks to the Lord Almighty who has brought me this far.
TVM: Growing up, did you have mentor(s) who inspired you to chart the path you took?
KQP: My mother was my inspirer and I owe everything I am now to her wherever she is. She’s someone who encouraged me a lot. She gave me the working capital I have today, which are honesty and truth. I didn’t start life with any capital or any capital from anyone, my only working capital was honesty.
Those times people gave me their goods and I went to sell them and when I did, I refunded their monies. And that is what has made me who I am today. Honesty is the biggest gift my mother gave to me. I remember she once said to me ‘Don’t ever buy stolen goods’. So, when they stole our cables for our first house, I said to myself, I won’t buy any recycled cable. So, I decided to import and that is how I started.
Supposing I started buying stolen goods, I wouldn’t have birthed this dream we see today. And that’s why the business started from the marketing of the cables. So, our first house is what has brought about this and it’s all because of honesty. That is the gift my mother gave to me and that is the difference between most of us. Real money is not money you have stolen. You don’t have it because you can’t look after it. If you go and steal, it’s not yours and you would never be comfortable but if God gives it to you, He gives you wisdom to manage it.
TVM: How do you manage being a mother and a leader?
KQP: Oh, I think it’s a matter of just putting your time slots and a plan together. I mean, when you get up, you have your day planned. You know, sometimes the day is not enough, because it’s like, oh why wasn’t I able to finish up with this? So, you simply cannot get enough time in the day. But you want to just also look at how you are going to slot in and pack your day.
I mean some of us when we sit down doing nothing, we get bored. So, you simply can’t sit and that is what makes you who you are. You have to keep moving and don’t be lazy. Don’t take things for granted, I mean, when you have to start from somewhere gradually.
These days everybody wants to be over there, overnight. But you can’t! You have to start from the scratch and take your time to build up because it’s taken some time to get to where we are today. But we haven’t even gotten there yet. Now we are at comma, we are turning a new leaf and a new life. So, what we need is a good team to move up with us, so that we can step up into the next level.
TVM: Would you consider going into politics?
KQP: No, no, I don’t think I have a temperament for politics. I don’t have it. I don’t have temperament for politics because you have to be a bit more diplomatic there. I can’t! I’m not a politician. I’m not born to be a politician.
I am a great leader of course but not anything at all in terms of politics. Of course, giving advice, yes. And if you want to be at the back, it will be like this is how I see it …we all have our gifts. This is how I see it and I advise. Also, I can be on boards and advise what to do but not in terms of being a politician.
TVM: If you had the opportunity to right a wrong, what would it be?
KQP: Oh well, I think that if I’m to talk about, I mean, the rights and wrongs, we all make mistakes one way or the other. But I will say that we always have to look at the end. That is, there’s always a light at the end of the tunnel.
TVM: So that means there are no regrets in any of your past actions?
KQP: Oh, I don’t think so. There are no regrets whatsoever. Because whatever comes your way, there is always a why? And once the why is corrected, you move on. I think maybe sometimes what is taken for granted for some of us may be your kindness can turn into something else which is not the best.
Because people know that you are kind, they take your kindness to be something else which is not the best at all. As we are all living, we live to learn. As I said earlier, we are always learning. So, we will get there.
TVM: What do you do in your leisure time? Are the any hobbies that you love doing?
KQP: Oh, yes of course! I love gardening. That calms my nerves. And when it comes to sports, I play squash. Look at where I am now, I’m thinking of playing gulf just to cool down a bit.
But I think that if you are born an entrepreneur, your mind is always working. You simply can’t stay still. Once I sit still, then there must be something wrong. So, I have to be moving but then you also need a team and then by God’s grace with the team that you have, you can excel. So, you can’t achieve all that by yourself. It’s a teamwork with the people around you.
Well even though as an entrepreneur you tend to do everything; you are the security, you are HR; you are all in all. But you should also have time for yourself. You know, to look at your family life, your private life and to look at your religion; you take all that into account because that makes you who you are.
TVM: What is your favourite meal?
KQP:Well, I don’t know whether it’s all because of my temperaments. I mean, if you talk about delicacies, I always say that I like the fast things. If we talk about delicacies of course, I know we have our locals and then we have the continental. For me, I like the swallows.
TVM: What about jollof?
KQP: Jollof is nice but some of us we have to take our time and chew it. So, for me, I like the swallows. The swallows go much better, much quicker. Of course you need to also take your time to enjoy it because you can’t eat it that fast if you want to enjoy it.
TVM: Which does the magic for you: Banku or Fufu?
KQP: Both do! You swallow all. So, I think it all comes in handy because I always say that I eat anything. The only thing one cannot eat is the thing that isn’t edible; like you cannot eat asphalt. So that’s it. You simply can’t eat it. So, whatever comes in that is eatable, I eat.
TVM: What genre of music do you listen to the most?
KQP: Oh, I love Classical music a lot. I listen to classical music most of the time because that helps me and makes me think deeper.
TVM: What about Ghanaian music?
KQP: Well, I think coming down to Ghana, sometimes I listen to the rhythms as and when it comes in but not any particular artist basically. Also, I love gospel music and that is what I mostly listen to. I love gospel music. I mostly listen to gospel music to meditate and pray. Basically, as life goes on, you always have to listen to different music and so I’m all for it.
TVM: Kate Quartey–Papaofio’s success has been extensively rewarded. What next should Ghanaians look forward to from your desk?
KQP: My ambition now is to give women in the engineering and technology space a platform to demonstrate their skills and capabilities in the industry. Also, I want to encourage innovation among them by identifying problems in the community and finding solutions using engineering and technology that can be used to solve them.
We want to use this platform to abolish the stereotyping that engineering is a man’s world and other menial jobs, the preserve of women. We need to work collectively to help alleviate the plight of many women across the length and breadth of the country and this is designed to achieve that through REETI.
TVM: With such veritable proofs of successes as a businesswoman, and your desire to empower young women, what would be your advice to them?
KQP: Businesswomen and young women should not allow their gender to be an excuse for failure in life but rather an impetus to their success. They have to break the glass ceiling and go for the ultimate in life. To the youth, I just want to encourage them to just explore the areas that they think there are no opportunities because now the world is us. It’s for the young youth.
They should just take the bold step to move on to the areas of their choice; what they think they can do. I mean some people may say right now I want to join the army, yes! I want to do this. I will encourage the youth that they shouldn’t look back and they shouldn’t depend on their fathers or (and) their mothers.
All they think now is that, oh well, my mum did this so I have to do this, my dad did this, so I have to do that. It’s good but what about you yourself? To add value to whatever your mum did, yes! But there is something that you have to add more to; whatever is there. Some people say, well my dad was a doctor, so I want to do medicine. Yes, your dad did medicine, of course but maybe that was the olden days.
What about this age, the medicine is done differently? So, what can you add to it so that it’s more of turning medicine around, than you just trying to follow his steps, you know? So, even if you want to do medicine, you have to look at it from the way you can enhance it better than where it was before.